ProfitWell has taken the video content game to the next level with Recur, their media network dedicated to producing content related to SaaS topics and businesses. Recur produces a series of video series and podcasts, all as part of the marketing plan for ProfitWell.
In this episode, we break down how all the different shows fit into their sales funnel, how they manage to produce so much content, publishing on YouTube vs their own site, and some takeaways for using video for any business, even if it’s not building an entire media network.
Connect with Patrick Campbell & ProfitWell
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ProfitWell and Patrick
- Morning Brew
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- LTV to CAC
[00:00:00.550] – Joey
Welcome to Behind the Upload, a video podcast that interviews entrepreneurs and marketers about their video marketing strategies and experiences. Each episode, we bring you tools, tactics, and insight you can apply to your own brand. I’m Joey Daoud, your host. In this episode, I chat with Patrick Campbell. Patrick is the CEO of ProfitWell, a SaaS analytics platform that provides subscription analytics, retention, and pricing solutions for all types of businesses that runs subscription services. ProfitWell also produces Recur, which is an entire media network with high-quality video shows, focused on topics of interest to SaaS businesses, such as Pricing Page Teardown, Protect the Hustle, and Boxed Out. In this episode, I talk with Patrick about why they created a media network, why brands should invest in video, how they develop a new series, and how they capture leads and measure success with their media network. For all the show notes links and transcripts, head over to behindtheupload.com. Now, enjoy my chat with Patrick.
[00:01:00.590] – Joey
All right. Well, thanks, Patrick. Start off big picture, what is ProfitWell?
[00:01:06.530] – Patrick
Yeah. So that’s the existential question of all questions, right? Who are you? No, so we build what are called revenue automation products for subscription companies. So if you’re a subscription company, you should be able to plug in your billing system and basically get access to a bunch of free metrics, so free revenue metrics. And then, also, you should automatically be able to lower your cancelation rate, which is one of our products, that’s what it does, or optimize your pricing. And so, we make subscription companies more money automatically is kind of the way to think about it. And when I say subscription companies, we work with software, like SaaS companies, all the way to consumer subscriptions, like a WHOOP. So like WHOOP, Typeform, ClassPass. These are all kinds of customers of ours, or subscription commerce, which are more physical goods that are sent on a subscription, either soap or shampoo, all the way to Box of Awesome, those types of things. So, yeah, that’s kind of the world that we play in.
[00:02:07.190] – Joey
Got it. I think that’s a good way to set the stage for what we’re mostly going to be talking about with Recur. So let’s just also start broad there. What is Recur Media?
[00:02:16.610] – Patrick
Yeah. Totally. So we about now, probably four years ago — so we’re a bootstrapped company, which just means that we didn’t take on investors. And we have nothing against investors. We’ll probably take investment at some point. But when you’re bootstrapped, you’re always thinking of leverage. Like, how do you get the most bang for your buck out of your marketing in particular. And so, my background’s in math. And so, I started doing a bunch of research on different marketing channels and things like that. And to make a really long story short, and we can definitely get deep into it, basically discovered that traditional inbound marketing was kind of going the way of SEO. So just kind of like content farms, which nothing against it, it’s just — you know, that’s how you get discovered in the long tail and everything like that, which is great. But on top of that, the brands that were really good at standing out from a numbers perspective tended to be media companies. So like actual traditional media companies, like a Bloomberg or even theSkimm, which is kind of like a modern media company. Morning Brew would be an example now as well. And putting two and two together, it was kind of like, “Oh, these folks are really, really good at traffic. And I can give you some numbers if it’s interesting to kind of compare, but they’re not as good at monetizing that traffic.” And then, software companies are really good at monetizing traffic. How do we put these two together? So we started a media arm of the company, which was just kind of a fancy way of saying, instead of focusing just on SEO, we want to go after media. The distinction is, and again, I’m sure we’ll get into this, is that basically, instead of going after kind of driving someone to an offer, like an ebook or something like that, the distinction became, well, we need to build audience with shows or episodic content. So something that someone’s looking forward to, or at least willing to look at, every single week because it has either long-standing education or entertainment, or hopefully the mix of both. And so, that’s hopefully not as rambly. It felt a little rambly of an explanation of what Recur Media is. Long story short, it’s our media arm of our team, of our software company.
[00:04:21.890] – Joey
Yeah, no, that was — I know we’re going to dive into a bunch of kind of parallel off of — or branch off of what you were saying.
[00:04:29.150] – Patrick
[00:04:29.150] – Joey
Going back to sort of the idea of this, okay, like content or inbound marketing with SEO is sort of have been done. What’s the next thing? How did you settle on video, which is sort of the most intensive form of media to produce versus the other options out there.
[00:04:47.330] – Patrick
Yeah. So there’s two reasons. One is kind of like a unique one. I’m pretty good friends with the Wistia guys, the founders of Wistia, which is like a video hosting product. And so, it’s one of those things where they were always, you know — they were evangelizing why video is so important for all the reasons that people listening or watching, understand, which is you just have a better brand experience. You have a much higher touch or high-impact touch with someone who watches a video versus someone who just reads something or hears about something. And so, all of that stuff. The other reason was because when you think of all of the reasons video is so powerful, you also have to realize that video, as you just kind of alluded to, is the hardest part of media. Because audio, it’s a little bit easier because you don’t have the visuals, right? Written is a little bit easier because there’s no visual or like multimedia in general, right? And so, we wanted to start with, you know. The hardest thing, right? So if we can get video and we can do that really well, presumably it is different, but we could probably do audio really well even though there are big differences there. And then, we are already doing written content pretty well, if not really well for our market. And so, it was kind of like starting with the hardest thing. And so, literally, instead of — and I was doing all of our content at the time. I was writing a blog post or two per week, and I hired a video producer. You know, he’s a kid. He’s still with the company. His name is Ben Hillman. I hired him right out of school, like out of Emerson, basically, a film program. And we just started with each blog post would have a video. We’d have the written part and the video. And the video was just kind of like a summary of the actual content. And, well, it was kind of cool for people. And I always suggest this to people who are, like, “Do I dip my toes in the videos?” This is where I think you should start, unless you’re hiring someone to take a big leap forward, like to do a full series or to do something bigger. Because even just having the summation videos, all of a sudden, you started to see a lot more brand impressions. And what I mean by that is, our word of mouth went up, our number of people kind of coming to us and saying, like, “Oh, yeah, I consume your content” because there’s so many people who aren’t going to read but they’ll certainly watch a 5 to 10-minute video. So, that’s kind of where we started, and also, why we started with video in particular. And then, now we have audio-only, written_only, and plenty of video throughout the kind of content suite.
[00:07:11.870] – Joey
Yeah. I do want to kind of circle back later of how you’ve been creating multifacets. I don’t know if repurposing content is the right word, but, yeah —
[00:07:22.850] – Patrick
[00:07:22.850] – Joey
Starting with video and then turning that into other forms of content. But still kind of going with the bigger picture, what made you sort of define — because some past interviews with you, and you start — you’ve very clearly defined Recur as a media network.
[00:07:37.910] – Patrick
[00:07:37.910] – Joey
And so why a media network versus we are a brand that makes videos, or like, these are just part of our ProfitWell brand.
[00:07:46.070] – Patrick
Totally. I think it’s kind of like a — some of it’s semantics, certainly. But it’s also, like, rallying the team or rallying the focus around a different way of growing. So, what I mean by that is video is a brand play in a lot of ways. It’s not pure brand. I think some people think it’s pure brand. There’s just a lot of measurable pieces to it as well. But I think the thing is, is like, again, going back to that kind of look at inbound marketing, right? Inbound marketing is very much like drawing someone to an offer and then having them download it. So you get their email address and then follow up with them in the sales capacity, right? So a brand or an inbound strategy with video, or brand with video, probably still is doing very something similar. It’s like, “Oh, we’ve added video now. Now, let’s get people to, like, download this ebook or sign up for this other offer, and then all of a sudden, let’s follow up with them.” What we wanted to shift was, like I said before, building audience, which is basically, “Hey, I get these hundreds of people, these thousands of people, whatever the group is, to watch or consume this piece of content on an episodic basis,” right? So we have this show called Pricing Page Teardown, which is one of our products’ pricing. It sounds ridiculous to anyone, not in our space. But we have tens of thousands of people every single month when it’s in season, watching this show, about us collecting data and talking through a Pricing Page and what that company should do better, what they’re already doing really well with their pricing to learn from, right? And it’s one of those things where it’s a very different interaction with your brand when someone is coming back month over month or week over week with your content, but also is starting to associate you with something like pricing or retention, like one of our other shows, or just the general kind of industry with one of our more kind of like top-of-the-funnel shows, as we call it. And so, it’s just a very different distinction of like what are you focusing on? Are you building audience? Meaning, you want that audience to grow. Not to, like, PewDiePie or YouTube levels, right? Like, maybe if you’re a consumer brand, that is the goal. But are you getting more and more people to consume that content every single week rather than just getting them to download something and then get hit up from sales? And don’t get me wrong, we hit these people up on sales, right, after qualifying them. But it’s just a different focus, if that makes sense.
[00:10:10.110] – Joey
Yeah, yeah. Completely. What — you know, let’s talk about some of the shows that you’re doing. So, like going on your site just on the menu, you’ve got like eight shows, because you have a lot of shows.
[00:10:19.290] – Patrick
[00:10:19.290] – Joey
Like, what are some — you mentioned — what did you just mention right now? Pricing Page Teardown —
[00:10:22.650] – Patrick
Pricing Page Teardown, yeah.
[00:10:24.390] – Joey
You have Protect the Hustle, Boxed Out, Trade Offs —
[00:10:27.606] – Patrick
[00:10:29.130] – Joey
RevOps and Hops.
[00:10:30.150] – Patrick
Yeah. Yeah. That’s a good one.
[00:10:30.870] – Joey
So these are all very specific.
[00:10:34.110] – Patrick
These are all very Industry-focused. Yeah.
[00:10:36.570] – Joey
Right. You definitely have a target audience in mind. But also the production value is very high. Like — and I know you’ve mentioned, like, Bloomberg has been a source of inspiration.
[00:10:46.650] – Patrick
[00:10:46.650] – Joey
Other just media entities of what worked and how you can kind of replicate that for yourself. Yeah, so how did you — when you created these shows, how did you determine which shows to make, which kind of, like, what audience to focus on with them.
[00:11:07.030] – Patrick
[00:11:07.030] – Joey
Like, yeah, what’s sort of the decision process in developing a new show?
[00:11:10.510] – Patrick
So really, the way we think about it is — the thesis I’ve kind of come up with is you have problem or solution-orientated shows. So for us, we sell a product that helps with pricing. We sell a product that helps with retention. So, we have shows that are very, very much focused on those things. And then, you also have audience-focused shows, right? And these can cross over, right? So our Pricing Page Teardown show, it’s for software companies trying to solve their pricing, right? You know, which, again, is a nice niche audience. But again, the niche is actually pretty big, which is kind of surprising. But then, we also think about, like, if it’s strictly an audience-focused show, that’s basically just, like, pure brand building, more generalized content. This is our Protect the Hustle show. So it’s for an audience for B2B SaaS companies. The software companies. But the content isn’t associated with a problem. So this is kind of like a general interview show. We try to do a little bit better than just a general interview, but it’s basically a general kind of show. And that’s kind of — we call it top-of-the-top-of-the-funnel content, which is basically, like, my mom isn’t going to listen to it unless she’s just, like, interested in supporting me. But, like, someone in our industry will find it interesting, right? They might not be the right buyer. They might not necessarily be the person who — or they might not have the problems that we solve with our product. But it’s like more awareness. And then, these other problem shows are more for deeper-in-the-funnel shows, where it’s like, you either have this problem or you’re a practitioner of this problem. So it’s like a much, much higher, richer kind of contact. And normally, that’s kind of what happens, too, with the audience, right? So our audience with thousands or tens of thousands for like Protect the Hustle, which is more general show. And then, some of our deeper shows, it might be thousand per week or per episode. And I think this was the biggest thing to kind of get over, right? Like, when you’re studying content and media, you’re looking at like YouTubers, David Dobrik’s, or all these other people who are getting millions of views and stuff, and you’re like, “Oh, I’m not succeeding.” And then, someone told me when I was kind of like, “I don’t know. We’re trying to get the audience up.” And they’re like, “Hold on a second. You have this many people with this topic tuning in every week?” Like, you would kill for a webinar of that size every week. Like, you would kill for a webinar to talk about pricing with 10,000 people per week, right? And that kind of like recontextualize what does success look like. But, yeah, long story short, audience, we kind of break it out that way. And we actually have a grid where it’s like, here are the verticals of the audiences we’re going after. And here are the types of shows: general show, retention-based show, pricing-based show. And that’s kind of how we structure things,. And we don’t have something in every intersection, but that’s kind of how we’re building. And then, the one last thing I’ll say here is we also found ourselves early on. I think it was like, just come up with a concept, test out the concept, figure out how to produce it, because all these mechanics can actually get really complicated. But what we found is there are some shows that, like, we are putting in too much effort for the results. And then there were other shows where it was like, we were, you know — we wanted to put more effort in but we felt like we couldn’t, right? So we are creating this, like — we called it average content, but that’s, like, not the right word. But we were kind of averaging out too much. So we added another distinction, which was, “Is this a scale show?” Meaning, we want to put as little work and do it as possible but still produce a certain quality bar. So this is like Protect the Hustle, right? So we do interviews, but it’s one of those things where — and then there’s some things that are just more than an interview show in terms of how we format it. But it’s one of those things where we have most of the production outsourced. It doesn’t cost us that much per episode. And, like, the production value is over a certain bar. It’s, like, definitely better than the average show out there. But then there are shows like Protect the Hustle. These are called upscale shows, where it’s like, that’s a show where we want it to be kind of like a diamond within our jewels here, if that makes sense, where basically what we’re doing is we put heavy production value into that. We have multi-camera, all these other things. And we’ll also spend a lot more time in post-production on those shows. And so, that distinction helped us a lot because creatives is keeping them excited. It’s not the easiest thing in the world. And so, they can kind of nerd out on those shows. Whereas they’ve minimized the amount of work they’re doing on some of the more, like, scale, which are a little more boring and a little more, like, mechanical to finish, if that makes sense. So, those are kind of the three axis that we think about.
[00:15:43.570] – Joey
With these scales versus upscale shows, did you start these shows going in knowing, like, okay, this was going to be our upscale show? Or do you start them all, maybe at smaller bets, and then, if they pick up, you’re like, “Hey, we’re going to double down on this and up the production value.” How does that work?
[00:16:00.430] – Patrick
Yeah. So we started — what ended up happening is, like, we basically — it was kind of like I was describing where it was kind of — every show was getting the same input, the same effort essentially. And for creatives, that doesn’t feel good, right? Because I think creatives, there’s some level of content that they’re, like, I want to put an extra — I want to go the extra mile for this because I want to try out a new technique. I want to just do something cool, like, there’s a lot of that. And then, they were getting burnt out also on some of these shows where we were doing, like, Oh, the same thing every single week, but someone had to do it because we wanted to ship every single week with this whole episodic content, right? So our head of the studios now, and he wasn’t — I mean, it’s an evolving thing because all of a sudden it was like, I was technically the head, but I was trying to, like, build — we were trying to build something that a lot of people haven’t done before in terms of having a software company with, like, a studio, basically. And he kind of came up with — he’s like, well, we should just — we should pick, right? And there’s some parameters where it’s like, it’s okay, if an upscale show, we push the deadline. It’s okay, right? Whereas, like a scale show, it’s not okay, right? So it just took a conscious choice and then kind of setting up some parameters around how much time we’re going to be involved. What’s, like, the minimum level of quality, right? And basically, it has to have, like, a decent treatment and intro, outro. Like, it just has, like, be professional. But it doesn’t have to be, like, the greatest thing we’ve ever produced, which is kind of — and we’ll do new shows that were, like, this is a scale show. It’s okay being a scale show, right? We just launched something called Retention Talk, which is basically a scale show, which is another interview show specific about retention. But it’s one of those things where we weren’t, like — we knew this was our limit. “Oh, we’re spending too much time here. Let’s cut this,” you know, all that kind of stuff going into it because we have set those parameters.
[00:17:52.610] – Joey
I did want to ask about — because you’ve mentioned the funnel a few times.
[00:17:57.110] – Patrick
[00:17:57.110] – Joey
And so, this funnel you’re talking about, is this strictly for your, like, the way you visualize all your different shows and the video funnel?
[00:18:03.073] – Patrick
[00:18:04.010] – Joey
Or is this also fitting into just your big overall sales funnel in general?
[00:18:09.110] – Patrick
Yeah, it’s a good question. I think it’s more around — how do I put it? Like, it’s more around, like, I use the funnel because — and I say it kind of, like, passively because, like, now it’s a flywheel. Like, what are we defining, marketing? I don’t know. Like, I don’t make those decisions.
[00:18:26.782] – Joey
It’s a spaceship to —
[00:18:26.750] – Patrick
But, yeah, it’s like the framework — it’s more of a framework to kind of, like, center thing. But I think for us it was — we think of, you know — we have a funnel or a flywheel within our entire business about all the other marketing things we’re doing demand gen, outbound sales. We do traditional inbound sales as well. So there’s a lot of stuff going on. And we also do a lot of SEO, and we do a lot of ebooks and stuff like that still. Because I think, like — you don’t abandon that with the strategy. You just add to it, right? That’s the thing a lot of people don’t understand. It’s like, “Oh, we’re going to stop doing SEO.” I was like, no, no, no, no, no. But, like, SEO is purely mechanical now, like, even the writing is very mechanical. Like, you just shouldn’t spend a ton of time or, like, hire a ton of people, like, outsource as much as you can, at least in my opinion, in that type of stuff. But the funnel, what helps us kind of think about is, like — or what it really helped us in the context of shows is, like, “Oh, we need to make sure that this show isn’t so broad that we don’t really know who we’re going after or what it’s going to help us do.” Very, very similarly, we need to make sure that we don’t go so deep that we just alienate everyone and we’re wasting a bunch of time. So that’s kind of like where the funnel came in for us was, like, is this a broad show, like, its very awareness, right? Whatever framework you’re using for the funnel. Or is this something that’s, like, middle-of-the-funnel content where it’s like a salesperson can send it? That’s just kind of why we use the funnel concept, but, like, it’s a little bit less — it’s more of just like a framework for thinking about something. It’s less of a practical thing that we, like, very specifically map out in terms of numbers, or shows, or those types of things.
[00:20:08.730] – Joey
It sounds like the map that you have is that grid of, like, this audience –
[00:20:12.510] – Patrick
Yeah, that’s more of what we attack. Yeah. And it’s like, okay, do we feel like we need an additional X for this or an additional Y for that? Or, hey, we have bandwidth to do another show. Like, where should we focus? That type of thing?
[00:20:29.130] – Joey
So, yeah, I mean we’ve talked about making a lot of shows. Let’s kind of get into the nitty gritty. So what does your content team look like? What does the production team look like?
[00:20:38.430] – Patrick
Yeah, it’s one of those things where we have a head of Recur Studios. So his name is Dan Callahan. He basically takes on, I would argue, creative direction for all content. And so he’s involved even with our events. We do a lot of events marketing as well. It’s picking back up finally with COVID kind of being here to stay. I wish I could say COVID is done, but I think it’s just going to be here forever in a certain capacity. Then, we have Danette, who is basically our editorial lead. She handles basically all the writing part, so she manages our outsourced contractors for SEO, but then handles, like, scripts, all that kind of stuff if it’s a scripted show. If it’s a not scripted show, she’ll still handle putting together kind of the blog post version of the show because we publish not just a video , but we also try to publish a blog supporting it. We have two senior producers. These folks, they’re typically video production first, meaning that’s their skill or their trade. But then they’re also good at story elements, as well as kind of keeping the trains running on time. So they handle not just the video and shooting and things like that, but the other parts. And then, we also have a creative producer. And he basically handles the execution of all graphical work, graphics, images, those types of things. Yeah. And the way we kind of structure the team is, well, we’ve experimented with how to actually structure the work, meaning schedule the type of work. Because some quarters where it was grueling and the other quarters, we felt like we didn’t get enough done. It just kind of all over the place. And so, what we’ve kind of found is we have these quarters that are dedicated purely to shows. And then, we have these quarters that are dedicated to just very not show content. So we call these ads, but they’re not always ads. Sometimes, they’re like an actual ad. And other times, they’re just like a short-form video for something. But basically, that helps keep the grueling nature of some of the mechanics of these processes, not to be like the full-time part of the job. And so, the show quarters, that’s like we’re either working on an existing show, developing a new show in a bunch of different ways, and then the ad quarters are a little more focused on kind of sprinty-type content, or even like big ads that might take a month but it’s exciting to kind of work on something that’s a little bit different than kind of just a show constantly.
[00:23:20.370] – Joey
Now, does it help? Because you also mentioned that — I guess every single show is structured like a season. So you’re making a season, so there’s, like, a start period and an end period. I’m like — if you’re we’re just going to do like a YouTube channel with two videos a week, and then you’re on a treadmill forever because it doesn’t have a seasonal structure. So just having this seasonal structure also help manage producing so many shows -?
[00:23:47.430] – Patrick
Yeah. No, it totally does, because I think the thing that — so some shows, I think with the exception of two weeks this year, we published Protect the Hustle every single week, which is kind of cool. In those two weeks or more, like they’re my fault. They weren’t the team’s fault. And so, it’s like one of those things where I think that — like with show type — even if you have two shows, you have so much content now. Because you have your SEO content, and then all of a sudden, you have these two shows that even if you only do a season a year, there’s a lot of remixing that can happen, a lot of recutting, so much stuff that can happen. But I think that what ends up happening for your team is that it gets a little boring sometimes, right? And they can push the show each season to another level. But that’s not as exciting as, cool, we’re going to have this new concept, go develop it, like something that’s brand new, right? So for us, it helps with the slog, but it also helps keep content out there. And then there’s an element of, “Oh, when is the new season coming,” right, that our audience will end up having? Yeah, I think it’s kind of a lot of different elements. And what I like in particular is it also helps us improve the cycle of from the mechanical parts of building things basically every single year — every single quarter, because we kind of double down pretty consistently.
[00:25:14.950] – Joey
And so, is it from – the names are listed off. Is it like five people in-house, six people in-house. Is that —
[00:25:19.390] – Patrick
Two, three, four, so it’s five. Yeah.
[00:25:20.770] – Joey
It’s like making videos, kind of working on video content. So are you —
[00:25:24.670] – Patrick
Well, technically, it’s all content. So that includes the SEO content.
[00:25:28.662] – Joey
[00:25:28.630] – Patrick
Yeah. That includes everything.
[00:25:30.430] – Joey
And basically, you’re just talking about your blog posts and website stuff.
[00:25:32.110] – Patrick
Yeah. Blog posts, ebooks, the audio content, the video content. We don’t do as much one-off written content anymore, unless it’s the SEO stuff. And most of that is outsourced to contracting teams and stuff like that.
[00:25:45.730] – Joey
Okay. Are you outsourcing other stuff with regards to video? Because I think a lot of them have really cool 3D animation intros, they have —
[00:25:54.370] – Patrick
[00:25:54.550] – Joey
Is that in-house? Is that — like, your camera, you have three camera stuff, is that —
[00:25:58.790] – Patrick
No. Yeah, all of that is in-house. We’re pretty proud of the fact that all that stuff is in-house.
[00:26:02.580] – Joey
[00:26:03.890] – Patrick
So all of the 3D stuff, I mean, it’s hard. It sounds like you understand how hard that is, but I mean, maybe we should have just outsourced it. But I think for us, our whole thing was like we’re trying to build a core competency. And it’s hard to build a core competency when you outsource. Now that being said, there are things that we do outsource from video. And typically that ends up being like the cutting and editing of the second through, however many episodes this season is. So what I mean by that is, like — it’s kind of like creating a drug, or a vaccine, or something. It’s like the first one is the hardest thing. That’s where you have all the brains and all of the creative effort and all that kind of fun stuff. It’s the most expensive one, right? But then, the second pill, or the second episode, third episode, fourth episode, fifth episode, et c. It’s kind of boring work because it’s like it’s the same intro. We’re not doing different intros, right? And it’s like just piecing things together. So, that’s easy enough to train and outsource contractor on, and also protect the creative time of our team. And so, yeah, long story short. Once you get to the second episode, we typically outsource everything, if that makes sense.
[00:27:08.150] – Joey
Yeah, it does. So you’re spending that time with that first episode, shaping the style, the tone, like what the show looks like. And then, once you have that first one done, you’re like, “Hey, contractor, this is what the end product should be like.”
[00:27:21.290] – Patrick
[00:27:21.290] – Joey
“Go make it.”
[00:27:22.250] – Patrick
[00:27:22.970] – Joey
Yeah. I think that’s a pretty — I think it’s pretty good. That’s a good idea.
[00:27:25.490] – Patrick
Well, and then the senior producer also has quality control over it. So it’s just one of those things that they can kind of manage it. And sometimes, we got to fix stuff. But we’ve now had enough of our contractors where it’s like, pretty — we kind of know we can trust the people we have, if that makes sense.
[00:27:44.550] – Joey
Yeah. Or they kind of get that communication is better, or they get what you’re going for, for that style.
[00:27:55.390] – Patrick
[00:27:55.390] – Joey
The other thing I was wondering about, too, because you have a lot of the shows that all have very distinct looks. Just also the set wise, you have these — even behind you right now, there’s like a nice textured wall.
[00:28:06.130] – Patrick
[00:28:06.130] – Joey
Are you building out these sets? Are you like — are these in the office? Are you like — what’s kind of —
[00:28:10.570] – Patrick
[00:28:10.570] – Joey
The set up with all these cool-looking sets?
[00:28:13.990] – Patrick
Yeah, my better half, she wanted a project because she saw this on Pinterest, and that we needed something for this wall. And it was terrible. It was so bad. It looks good, don’t get me wrong. But it was bad. We used the wrong wood or something like that on here, or on the texture part. I’m trying to get it in the frame. Yeah, there you go. So that’s what made it worse. But yeah, sets, we build on our own. And so, we haven’t had a set that’s, like not — how do I put it? We haven’t had a set that’s intense, I guess, meaning, like, “Oh my gosh, we need — we should pull permits” or something crazy for it. Like, most of the stuff is pretty doable, or a couple of trips to Home Depot, or that type of a thing. And so, yeah, we’ve gotten good and scrappy on that. I think we are looking into for some future stuff, like, basically renting out sets or warehouse space, like, build some more elaborate sets. But we’re not quite there. We’ll get there at some point. Some of the ads, actually, we’ve done, we definitely rented out spaces, and stuff like that. But it wasn’t. It didn’t take too much to build out those sets.
[00:29:19.270] – Joey
And what kind of gear are you using kind of camera-wise, editing-wise? What’s the cool stuff?
[00:29:25.270] – Patrick
Yeah. Every end of year. I get a wish list because it’s kind of like dump-your-budget season for taxes and stuff. We use — so, It’s kind of funny. So, I am not the guy to ask about gear either, just to be clear. I will tell you from a loose understanding perspective, so we do — so like right now, I’m on a GH5. That’s kind of like — that was like our standard core camera. But we’ve now upgraded to, for some of the bigger stuff, a number of the Blackmagic kind of cameras. And then, the gear that’s kind of like pressing that’ll give us some street cred is we have a nice big Jellyfish for all of our content. This is the thing. Storage like Dropbox is not smart for the stuff you’re doing. And so it all adds up. So there’s this thing called RAIDs, if you don’t know. But in Jellyfish, it’s kind of like a premium RAID. I feel like that’s it. But yeah, and then, like other stuff like the lighting, we’re using the aperture kind of classic lighting. I’m using an ATEM Pro for switching. I don’t have multiple cameras on this right now or multiple mics, but we use a couple of those just for multi-camera stuff. And I think other gear, we have a crane that we bought for, like, five years ago, and it was used just for the first time last year. I think there’s a lot of toys. There’s a lot of toys, as you probably know.
[00:30:55.390] – Joey
I have some MoVI stabilizers that have not been used that often.
[00:30:55.390] – Patrick
I know. We have a bunch of edelkrone stuff that we have not used. And that stuff’s not as cheap as the crane was, and so.
[00:31:04.810] – Joey
They make some good stuff.
[00:31:06.190] – Patrick
Yeah. We have used it before, but it’s like, you always are thinking like, I’m going to use this all the time. And then, you’re like, well, I used it for that one shot. Now one shot was worth it, but — so, yeah, there’s some other stuff. And then, we started upgrading to these mics, these Shure mics. But I will say, we used the — it’s called the Audio-Technica AT2020. They’re like $100. They’re USB mics. Those mics are fantastic. We still use those on a couple of things, like when we’re remote, because they’re durable, they’re cheap, and they just sound really, really good. And then, we wanted to upgrade a little bit. So we started getting the Shure’s here. But, yeah, that’s kind of the thing. I don’t know if that’s really that helpful, but yeah.
[00:31:49.690] – Joey
It’s always helpful —
[00:31:52.210] – Patrick
We like to use — No, I know. We also try — so, I’m not — you couldn’t put me — I wouldn’t know what to do in Premiere, or even Final Cut Pro, or anything. I wouldn’t know what to do in the software. But we also try to enable people like me who can create content that looks good without having to use the show producer or contractor’s time. So, what’s in front of me right now is I have this ATEM Mini Pro, which does the capture card and stuff like that. But then also I have a Stream Deck. And when I record an OBS, and it’s probably not worth explaining, because if you know what I’m talking about, you’re like, yeah, of course, this is what you do. But if you don’t know, you don’t know the words I’m using. But long story short, they’ve set it up so that if I want to record a video for social, rather than them having to cut it, edit it, etc., or me look through it, then send it to them to cut it or whatever, I can actually record a Twitter video without their help. And they have a bunch of graphics set up on the Stream Deck so that I can just press these buttons while I’m talking. And then, if I need to do some basic cuts in QuickTime, I can. But it’s one of those things where, like me, as a non-video producer, I can create the content and go without involving them at all. So, there’s a lot of that that we do, which is like, cool, how do we set this up so that I can do this myself, or the salesperson can do this themselves? Or those types of things.
[00:33:10.610] – Joey
Yeah, that’s very cool. I think that’s a good use, too, of the ATEM. And that’s a nice pairing with the Stream Deck. So it kind of just turns on some graphics if you need them for like the first —
[00:33:18.350] – Patrick
Yeah, I don’t know, I think I can show you. Sometimes OBS is terrible with this stuff. And I don’t know if this will make it into the cut, but let me share my screen a second here.
[00:33:33.530] – Joey
So yeah, we can try it.
[00:33:35.030] – Patrick
Yeah. So let’s see if I share this screen. Yup, Screen 1. So normally, I’ll put this on my other screen. Can you see my screen?
[00:33:44.460] – Joey
[00:33:45.890] – Patrick
No, it’s not popping up.
[00:33:48.950] – Joey
Your connection has been kind of weird. I don’t know if it’s you or me. But you’ve cut out sometimes. It said it’s been recording on Riverside, so I’m having fingers crossed that, like —
[00:33:55.370] – Unknown Speaker
Normally, Riverside is pretty good.
[00:33:55.688] – Joey
Okay, I see it now.
[00:33:56.030] – Patrick
Okay, cool. So, this is OBS, obviously. And then, I have all these different buttons that I can set up that have different graphics. And so imagine me recording a quick, like, “Hey, everybody, here’s some new data.” And I can run it over to things. I can add a CTA, a bunch of different stuff to put at the beginning or at the end of different things. The sound. I don’t know if you can hear the sound. But I can record that and then basically cut it up and not have to disturb our producer’s time, which is great overall.
[00:34:37.110] – Joey
And you’re controlling OBS with the Stream Deck shortcuts.
[00:34:39.930] – Patrick
Yeah. So any time you saw a graphic change, it was because I was pressing a button on the Stream Deck. And sometimes, it can get a little — like, I’ll have to do a take or two. But again, my time is worth less than their time when it comes to this kind of stuff. So it’s okay if I record it twice or something like that.
[00:34:58.890] – Joey
Yeah, that’s cool. I think it’s a cool setup if you’re not a video pro to have an easier way to get some stuff going.
[00:35:07.170] – Patrick
[00:35:08.430] – Joey
Now are you on Final Cut? Because you mentioned Jellyfish. I think that’s optimized for Final Cut.
[00:35:14.890] – Patrick
I hear Premiere all the time. So I think we’re using Premiere, but again, I know enough to think I know something, and I really don’t when it comes to this stuff. But I’m pretty sure we use Premiere more than anything. I’ve always heard like, “Oh, I can do that quick in Premiere,” words like that, rather than Final Cut. I did learn Final Cut at one point, but it was like Final Cut 7 or something, long time ago in high school.
[00:35:42.070] – Joey
Yeah, if it was 7 then it’s drastically different now.
[00:35:45.130] – Patrick
Yeah, it was a long time ago.
[00:35:46.330] – Joey
Basically, 7 is dead and there’s a new version.
[00:35:48.370] – Patrick
Yeah. That’s when I was like, I want to do something more than iMovie. I’m going to be a filmmaker. And I was like, no, you’re not going to do this. Yeah.
[00:35:56.770] – Joey
Yeah, thinking about the future now where it’s like high school kids learning editing now are learning it via the editing tools in TikTok or Reels, which is like a completely different way of thinking about editing video.
[00:36:08.170] – Patrick
[00:36:08.350] – Joey
So it’ll be interesting to see once they kind of like then become of age and someone to be professional editors. If editing will switch to TikTok or if they’ll just adapt. That’s my curiosity.
[00:36:21.010] – Patrick
[00:36:21.010] – Joey
So you got the shows produced, you’re publishing them. The shows are going up on your website through Wistia, correct?
[00:36:30.490] – Patrick
[00:36:33.010] – Joey
So, yeah, explain to me the thought of hosting it yourself or hosting it through Wistia, which is pretty much hosting it yourself, having it on your website, versus — I know you put some content up on YouTube. But how do you think of the two, of having stuff on your site versus having stuff on YouTube? Once your mic is a rare pair.
[00:36:50.350] – Patrick
You know what? These mic arms, they’re very cheap, but they last a long time. But then, when they’re at the end of their life, which this one’s probably like two, three years old, it just becomes comical. Yeah. It’s just like metal, like hollow metal.
[00:37:04.150] – Joey
You need a new arm to match the new mic?
[00:37:06.670] – Patrick
That’s true. Long story short. So what we’re doing with Wistia — so, YouTube is a social network. It’s an SEO and social network. And so, we felt like we don’t have a very clear YouTube strategy, and we don’t have really the priority right now or the person to dedicate to developing one. So, YouTube for us is just very much like, we’re going to either do an experiment there if we think it’s worthwhile, or there’s something that we have that’s unique. We actually have an experiment coming out next week on that. Or it’s just make sure there’s a video uploaded every X days, or every couple of days, or every week, or at least, right? So just to have content, like indexing there. The rest of it, with Wistia, it’s like we just want to control the brand when it’s on our landing pages and our website basically, right? And YouTube doesn’t really let you do that that much. They put stuff at the end of videos. And yes, some of the stuff has changed, but it’s like, we want to be able to capture email addresses. And so we can do that with Wistia. We want to be able to control where you go after it, right? And I think, like, in the beginning, it probably wasn’t that big of a deal. But now, it’s like we have serious leads come through our videos, and so we want to make sure that we’re getting those leads. It just kind of works out that way, if that makes sense.
[00:38:36.450] – Joey
Now, I mean, one of the big things with YouTube is, as you said, it’s a social network and it’s also a huge search engine and has its own form of video SEO. And so it’s a good way for people to discover stuff.
[00:38:45.570] – Patrick
[00:38:45.570] – Joey
How are people discovering the videos that you have when you’re just hosting the video on your site?
[00:38:53.370] – Patrick
So, we don’t have a good solution right now. So, we should add search to our site, especially given people look to us as a resource for a lot of things. We honestly just haven’t gotten around to it. When I’m trying to find something, I always, like, I just search Google, I just search whatever I’m searching for ProfitWell to find it. So I know it’s not like a really satisfying answer. But then the other thing is structuring that main home page that you have or that you saw. For Recur, that at least kind of structures like here’s what this is all about, here’s what’s here. And then, there’s just like a feed at the bottom of everything that basically gets posted in a given week or a given time period. So yeah, I don’t have a good answer, but we kind of know what we should do, if that makes sense.
[00:39:37.830] – Joey
Well, I guess my broader question — because you said, in some of the shows, you get a couple of thousand views. Once the show is published, how are people finding out about it? Is it all through email? What’s the kind of promotion arm that happens?
[00:39:52.110] – Patrick
Yup, exactly. Exactly. And it’s one of those things where we basically email folks. And if it’s a podcast or a podcast-orientated show — because some of our podcast-orientated shows do have video elements that we still post. But if it’s a podcast, we just straight up will send it to people we have the email address, but then obviously rely on the podcast networks, and stuff like that. So we use a product called Transistor, which is just one of the podcast-orientated — they put it everywhere, Spotify, wherever people listen. And that’s kind of where people get access.
[00:40:31.330] – Joey
And for the video-wise, is that pretty much all coming in through email through newsletters?
[00:40:36.430] – Patrick
Most of the time, yeah. So that’s kind of what we do. I mean, we do some social. Our social strategy, we just didn’t — again, kind of similar to YouTube. We just haven’t someone who could dedicate time to it, and it wasn’t the biggest priority. It’s slowly becoming the biggest priority because we’re solving the other priorities. But, yeah, it’s just one of those things where we need to dedicate more time there because we know we’re missing audience basically based on that.
[00:41:01.750] – Joey
Is there any — does SEO come into play in regards to your videos in the sense of getting the videos in YouTube — not YouTube, but Google’s video search results.
[00:41:11.770] – Patrick
[00:41:11.770] – Joey
Has it happened with your videos? Is that part of — is there keyword strategy behind where you’re posting?
[00:41:17.230] – Patrick
Yeah. Not as much as you probably think. There’s probably some juice there we’re missing. But also, Google doesn’t make it the easiest thing to figure out because they don’t tell you what works and what doesn’t. And so, video helps. But sometimes, video doesn’t. We’ve definitely gotten into those little featured snippets with our video. And so, yeah, long story short, it’s one of those things that, again, we know it helps, but we’re not going out of our way to optimize for it as much, if that makes sense.
[00:41:49.210] – Joey
And so, once the videos are out there, how are you measuring success or determining if a video is successful? And then also, like, if a show or just the whole media network concept as a whole is working?
[00:42:03.730] – Patrick
Yeah. Very carefully. We look at our LTV to CAC, right, which is — I guess not everyone here is like a subscription business. It’s like the lifetime value or a measure of how much revenue we’re getting, over how much we spent on marketing and all kinds of costs, right? And obviously, that includes this team. And so we kind of track that. The thing that’s hard, though, is tracking it on a very segment-by-segment basis can get messy because our deals are like multi-stage deals. It’s not like someone comes in, swipes their credit card, and goes on their way where something could be very measurable. It’s like, they come in, they read a post, they come back two weeks later, they watch a show, they get on a call with a salesperson, the salesperson has three or four calls, and then they click Close the Deal, right? So whenever you have that complication, we can very easily measure the end and the beginning, right? The middle gets a little messy. So there’s some things we’re able to measure, like did this person consume any of our video or audio content before purchasing? Even then, it’s a little hard because we don’t get good tracking from like Apple, right? And even if you ask, “Where did you hear about us?” That’s going to be very mono-variable rather than multivariable. So yeah, long story short, we certainly track some of these things on a one-off basis. But we also track it pretty anecdotally, right? And this is very uncomfortable, given a math background guy, because I want to be able to measure everything. But I think with content, I would just argue in a lot of things with business, especially in the marketing side. We lull ourself into this false sense of security of it either has to be 100% perfectly tracked, which is basically impossible, or we’re just not going to track anything. And therefore, it’s going to be all willy-nilly. And I think the truth is recognizing the limits of your data and being able to figure out, does this work and does this work as a function of, like, do I have the right information? And if so, can I make sure that I amplify certain things that seem to be working more and then take away the things that aren’t working as much. And so we do look at it on a show-by-show basis. And it’s more of like an evaluation period. It’s not like we’re looking at it realtime, but I think it’s more of like a commitment to the vision among a lot of this as well. So yeah, hopefully, that’s helpful. It’s probably not that helpful. It’s more like philosophical to get you around. But I think that you should track as much as you can, and then just get your tracking better every single quarter. That’s kind of what you should be focused on, at least in my opinion.
[00:44:38.210] – Joey
Are you doing anything on a granular level in the sense of looking at watch time on the videos and being like, “Oh, hey, people are falling off around this spot. We should restructure the videos.” I assume Wistia —
[00:44:49.970] – Patrick
Say that one more time. Sorry.
[00:44:51.530] – Joey
I assume Wistia has a metric — I’m not familiar with Wistia, but I assume they have a metric of percentage of where people started dropping off, where they stopped watching the video. Like, YouTube has a graph where it’s like, “Hey, everyone starts at the beginning, and then at this part, like, 70% of people drop off.” And it’s like, “Oh, okay, my intro suck. I need to get to the content quicker because people are getting bored.” Do you have a metric like that?
[00:45:20.450] – Patrick
Yeah, we do look at that. I think the problem is we now have enough data to look at that. If we started looking at that data in the first season of a show, it gets tough, right? Because measuring this stuff can be tough, but it’s also not that measuring this stuff has to be that difficult. Sorry, measuring this stuff is tough. But also, even if you can measure it, understanding what is good and what is bad could be really difficult, right? Like, if there’s drop-off at 3 minutes into a 10-minute video, and it goes to 0, if that makes sense. All of a sudden, there’s a lot that you can learn from that. But if it gradually drops off to the bottom, and then you have your ending level of people are the ones who end up buying something, or like taking a call with a salesperson, it’s like, was that a success? Was that failure? Right? And so this is where it gets really murky. So we do look at this. And we’ll look at it for shorter-term or midterm-type stuff. And what I mean by that is like, “Hey, we put this out there? Are there things we can do for the rest of the season because this drop-off seems bad?” But it’s not as easy as just being like, “Oh, well, this drop-off happened. We need to fix it or change everything,” right? You have to qualify it a little bit. And I think that that’s what — we think about a lot of what we do is product, right? Again, there’s a lot of different people who watch this or listen to this. But like products, you never have perfect data. You never have perfect information. It’s one of those things that there’s just a lot to fix. There’s a lot to do. And sometimes, you have to go with a little bit of gut, but it’s not really gut. It’s more of like you taking everything into account and then putting something out there and seeing how it does, and then kind of iterating from there. So yeah, the idea of tracking, the idea of using data, we have this data, but it’s like, what you do with it still needs to be filtered. And I think some people, again, they get into that false sense of security, “Well, if I can track it, I can change everything.” It’s like, “Yeah, but you’re not necessarily changing the right things because what does success look like?” And then, there’s the other people who are just, like, “Well, I can’t do it perfectly so I’m not going to do it at all,” which is also not the right answer. So it’s hard. It’s really, really hard.
[00:47:37.590] – Joey
Yeah. Maybe you see a big drop-off, but the people that are watching it are the people that you actually want to watch it and are your potential customers versus people that dropped off and, like, it wasn’t for them. So it’s like, it’s hard to determine that.
[00:47:49.530] – Patrick
Yeah. Totally. Yeah, it’s hard. And this is why you have to look at the beginning and the end, and a bunch of other fun things as well. But that can get nice and complicated.
[00:47:58.110] – Joey
Now, what were your thoughts on syndicating the content or repurposing. If you record a video, turning that into a podcast.
[00:48:09.570] – Patrick
So that to us is more — it’s less syndication. Syndication, we look at putting that on a partner blog or doing that with a partner, which we’ve done a couple of things. I think, yeah, that’s a little bit different. I think for us, using — cutting up that content into different mediums, we try to do as much of that as we can. Sometimes, if it’s like a heavy graph show where we’re talking about a lot of graphics or like actual data, it just doesn’t make sense to put into a podcast because it’s just not interesting to listen to. But when it’s something easy to have all three mediums: written, audio, and video, we try to do that as well because people consume differently. Which is great. Some people like to skim. Some people like to just listen. Some people like to watch and they sit down. Some people like to put stuff in the background. And so, we try to do that as much as possible. And in terms of our definition of syndication. we try to do that as well. And actually, it’s kind of a good advantage right now because people, when we try to partner with people, it’s just one of those things that we end up doubling down in terms of like, “Hey, we could do all the video work for you because we’re good at it now, or at least we know what we’re doing,” right? And they’re like, “Oh my gosh. Yeah, I want to do video.” Like that RevOps and Hops, that was done with one of our integration partners. And they get the advantage of that, we get the advantage of their audience, and so on and so forth.
[00:49:39.570] – Joey
Got it. Yeah. I think there was an interesting quote you had from another interview I saw. That was focusing on the audience through the medium, and not taking the video and then just ripping the audio out, and it’s like, “Hey, we got a podcast,” but creating custom — shaping each format specifically for what the audience is looking for.
[00:50:03.330] – Patrick
[00:50:03.330] – Joey
Which does take more work. But in your experience, have you found there’s a better return from taking that extra work to creating a separate video version versus creating a separate audio-only podcast version?
[00:50:12.870] – Patrick
Yeah. Well, you normally don’t go up the stack. You normally don’t go like, “We have an audio thing. Let’s make a video.” You normally go down. Meaning like, “I have this video. Let’s make audio and let’s make written,” right? Because that’s where you already have the audio. And I think the thing is, it’s worth it because people consume differently and they consume through different channels. So someone I have their email address, they might want to watch the video. Whereas, like someone who discovered us through Spotify, they might not even know the video, right? But what you do is you don’t just do a straight rip from the video. The thing that needs to happen is you need to make sure that you put it in the context of the medium. So what that means is the intro is going to be a little bit different for the audio version. And we might call a couple of things out here and there. Nothing like in the episode typically, but we’ll call some things out a little bit differently because of that medium. And that’s the thing that most people miss. But all of a sudden, I’ve created more content. I’ve created more stuff that can attract more people. And the work is very minimal typically. And most of this type of work, we outsource completely.
[00:51:19.990] – Joey
People getting started. Any tips for people that are just getting started in brands that are getting started in video?
[00:51:27.310] – Patrick
Say that one more time. Sorry, it did cut out.
[00:51:29.170] – Joey
Brands that are getting started in video. Any tips for — from what you’ve learned now, looking back, if you’re just starting off in this again but weren’t going to invest a huge amount in creating a whole media content studio, but you were a brand that wanted to get started in video, what kind of tips do you have for getting started?
[00:51:51.170] – Patrick
So I think — it’s one of those things where I think instead of hiring an additional content writer, hire a video person. That’s the biggest thing. So I think that’s where I would start. And I think there’s a couple of types. I think you have three elements: graphics, video production, and story or host or outline or whatever it is. I’m a bigger fan for making sure you have someone who’s story and video production. I think graphics can always come later, or you can outsource that, or the video person can probably do an okay job at that. I think that’s what a lot of people fixate on. And if you have someone who’s really good at graphics but doesn’t want to do the video production and can’t write a story, you’re not really starting anywhere, right? Unless you’re going to outsource to a particular agency, or something like that. So that’s kind of how I would structure things. I think the bigger thing is, when we hired Ben, it was one of those things where I could easily do the story elements or fill in the different pieces of the expertise or the content, where he could kind of take on all the stuff I didn’t know, like editing and all that kind of stuff. And I think that’s what you kind of want to do. You can probably find someone who has all three of these things, but it’s going to be really rare. And you’re probably not going to want to spend the money on someone like that because you’re going to be like, “I don’t even know if this is going to work,” even if I tell you it is going to work, if that makes sense.
[00:53:21.270] – Joey
Yeah. So I know current things you got coming up. You were doing a podcast van tour?
[00:53:27.390] – Patrick
Yeah. So we’re doing a lot of fun stuff, that type of things.
[00:53:33.930] – Joey
What was the idea behind that?
[00:53:36.150] – Patrick
It’s just a strategy where we basically are looking at. We do really well in person. We are kind of already testing this before COVID, not quite to this effect. But then, all of a sudden, as things started opening back up, we were like, all right, let’s use those learnings and get out there. And so, yeah, I’m not on the road right now. But for the next 12 months, I’ll be living on the road in multiple different ways in order to do meet-ups, dinners, coffees, events, those types of things, as we kind of move forward.
[00:54:07.290] – Joey
And then, you have a van that is a built-out audio and studio?
[00:54:09.450] – Patrick
Yeah. That was more like a personal project that ended up being a company thing. During COVID, I was like, I wanted a project because I wasn’t traveling. And we’ve all — well, maybe we haven’t, but just search camper van or van life on YouTube, and you’ll fall down a rabbit hole. So I started doing that for my personal self and bought the van myself, and all that kind of stuff, but then ended up pushing into the other stuff when it came to kind of making it a business thing, which I would personally find — when I can make something that’s aligned personally and professionally like, I tend to do better at it, or I tend to be more motivated for it, if that makes sense.
[00:54:50.010] – Joey
Yeah, I totally get it. Cool. Well, I really appreciate the time, Patrick, and I appreciate you sharing your insights with Recur.
[00:54:57.510] – Patrick
[00:54:57.510] – Joey
Where can people find out more about Recur, ProfitWell, you? What are some good links?
[00:55:03.090] – Patrick
I’m just [email protected] LinkedIn, Twitter, that’s where I post most things. And yeah, if you have any questions, I’m more than happy to help. I know this is kind of like a newfangled thing, and there’s got to be somewhere I can put all this fun knowledge. But yeah, just let me know how I can help.
[00:55:19.650] – Joey
Cool. Well, thanks a lot, Patrick. I appreciate it.
[00:55:21.810] – Patrick
See you. Bye.
[00:55:23.190] – Joey
Thanks so much for tuning in. If you enjoyed this episode, please leave a 5-star review or comment in your podcast app of choice. You can find all the show notes and more episodes over at behindtheupload.com. Thanks for joining, and I’ll catch you in the next episode.