Behind the Upload, Marketing

How Surfer SEO Uses YouTube Discovery Ads to Educate Customers

Surfer SEO episode title with pictures of Joey and Tomasz

Joey Daoud

July 26, 2021
Content
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In our very first episode of Behind the Upload, we speak with Tomasz Niezgoda from Surfer SEO about their video marketing strategy, their formula for thumbnails, how they use YouTube Discovery Ads, and a trick to use Surfer SEO to improve your YouTube descriptions. 

Check out Surfer SEO and connect with Tomasz Niezgoda.

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Show Notes

Transcript

Cool. Thank you so much for joining me, Tomasz. So why don’t you tell me a bit about what Surfer SEO is?

Ok, so thanks so much for having me. And Surfer is, in short, a content intelligence platform that can help you write better optimized and user friendly content, as well as create a whole content strategy for upcoming- upcoming months for niches. And- and also it will help you with updating existing content on your site.

So I say- I got to say, I just discovered it and fell in love with it, I found out through it, through Conversion AI, I was kind of going through there and then saw that had the integration. I’m like, oh what’s this? And it’s just been this great kind of arrow- because you have the score system to kind of rank how well your article could compete with other top rated articles for whatever keyword you’re targeting, right? That- kind of the best way to describe it?

Yeah, it’s called a content score. Yeah. And we take into consideration hundreds of factors, including natural language processing, but also the actual look of the site, the design. And, you know, for example, not only the HTML attributes on the text, but also the things that make- the look of the of the text on their websites.

And to- can you tell me a bit about how this started, how you got into SEO, was it in your background? How did the head of the Surfer come about?

Sure. So Surfer was an internal tool in Slawek Czajkowski’s agency. It all started in 2015. And maybe not the Surfer- the Surfer itself, but the project. And it was a complex tool. I would say that it was an excellent steroids and it just helped- it just helped with gathering data and doing a correlations between ranking factors and rankings. So it was complex and it was dedicated to people, to SEO experts, to people who have a good understanding of what they are looking for.

But after two years, Lucjan Suski joined Slawek and Michal and they come up with a newest- a new version called Surfer. And the project just started going. We published a beta version of Surfer for Polish Market in 2017. And in 2018, I joined the- I joined the company as a- as a guy who had some network in Warsaw, and would be able to probably help guys to get some fundraising, etc. But in fact, we didn’t do that and we all bootstrapped the company and we have a very good traction right now.

So we are very fortunate to not have and if we see on the table right now.

That’s awesome. That’s great. Yeah. So actually, I did want to ask because- just going into your video content. So like, once I kind of became a member, I saw you had like a lot of great videos explaining how to use the software and how to make- make use of it. But when I looked at your YouTube channel, I noticed that a lot of the first videos were in Polish. So do you want to talk about- just kind of bit how do you- how your video strategy came to play and how it evolved from Polish tutorials to like English tutorials, that- that got a lot more traction?

Yeah, sure. So as I said, we started in the Polish market. So we have been targeting Poles. And back then we already knew that Surfer won’t become as easy to use as Uber or Airbnb anytime soon. So we decided to, you know, go with a path of educating on how to use Surfer to its fullest because it is a complex and powerful tool. Yet to utilize its full potential, you have to understand some- some basic stuff and to also don’t- those more advanced techniques.

What’s more, it’s a fast changing application. So this is why we’ve decided to start creating videos, live trainings and tutorials, articles, blog posts and so on. And in my opinion, video is by far the easiest and most convenient way to learn things. So this is why we would create a lot of videos at this moment. And yeah, it just had to happen that we will transfer those- these content from Polish to- to English. And at this moment, we even don’t create any Polish materials.

So it’s only on the English so that, for example, the new version of application will only have English materials and English articles and so on.

Is it just because the vast majority of your users speak English even if you are-

Yeah, yeah.

Polish?

That’s the reason.

What- are you able to tell how much of the people watching your videos- I get the sense that a lot of it was to support people that are users of your app so they can make more use of Surfer SEO. But have you been able to see anything in the sense of people discovering YouTube videos that weren’t aware of Surfer SEO and then become users?

Yes, and this is quite interesting because when when we checked the Google Analytics after a couple of months of creating videos, we’ve been stunned with the results because YouTube became a fourth channel for- for- for the- for our, for our traffic that we are getting. And there’s a lot of- a lot of conversions directly from- from YouTube, we fill our paths. So that’s amazing. And at this moment, it’s still a fourth channel for us.

What would- you said fourth channel?

Yes.

What would the- what are the other three?

So we- the biggest and is the- the referral, the direct traffic that we- that we get from, for example, from our affiliates and other people that are referring Surfer to their friends. And the third is organic and the fourth is YouTube.

Awesome, awesome. Yeah, I did notice, like the- your number one video is an NLP and BERT in SEO: How To Boost Your Organic Traffic. So that- so that one definitely isn’t Surfer- I mean, it’s about Surfer, but Surfer isn’t in your title. And that one got the most views. So when you’re- when you’re developing the videos, do you have any- or can you walk me through what your thought process is between- behind like, ‘Ok, what video should we make next?’

Is it something like related to surfer or is it something to tap into just the larger SEO space in general? Can you walk me through?

Sure, sure.

So we’ve been testing some strategies especially related to our content marketing efforts, and we decided that the product -oriented content works best for us. So we just create videos and other- other material materials that are relevant to to the product itself. So, for example, when you are talking about NLP video, it’s because we we released Natural Language Processing analysis in Surfer back then. And after a couple of weeks, I just created a video about what Natural Language Processing is, in fact, and also how you can utilize it to to the fullest with Surfer.

So the video got, I don’t know, twelve thousand views or something like that.

Yeah, might be up to like 14 or 15.

Cool. Yes.

When I looked at it last night.

Yeah, that’s- that’s really amazing because the- in SEO world, this is a real movement and people are looking for NLP. It’s still a new thing and people are discovering it. So we are one of the first tools that supports it. And of course, we also have some resources about that. This is why we have a lot of organic traffic from keywords like ‘what is NLP in SEO context’ or something like that. And also we are getting dozen- dozens of- of views daily on our YouTube channel to videos related to NLP.

And you asked me about the process of creating new video. So we have two paths for this. The first one is when something changes- changes in applic- in the application. For example, when we- the new features or sub features and we need to, you know, guide, how to- how to- walk through how to use them. And new people are our current users. And the second path is when we discover a new way of using Surfer, or maybe a new process for- for using Surfer to, I don’t know, maybe, let’s say optimize a specific, related site like a e-commerce site, for example.

And we find a new process for this. We think that it’s valuable to other users, not only to a couple of them, that will notice the presentation on some kind of events that we will host or something, and then we will create a video and promote it on Google ads or something like that to make sure that more people will have a chance to watch this.

Yeah, that’s great. I would love to also understand what you’re- kind of you’re- just your process for for making the videos is as far as, you do script it out? Do you have an outline? Do you know what the recording process is, the editing process? You know, walk me through the kind of tactics that you’re doing in making the videos.

Yeah, of course. So the first step is writing a script. Maybe the first one is writing and outline. The second is writing a script. Then it’s a recording, editing, adding some animations, other graphics elements. And we use Adobe Premiere Pro for editing and Adobe After Effects for, let’s say, animations and other stuff. And then- then we publish the video on YouTube. Of course, we need to create a thumbnail and write a good description, title, and so on.

And after we have everything in place, we publish it and do a promotion for the video.

How- how long would you say from- from outline to, like, the video being done, would you say that it takes?

So it depends on the video, on the topic itself. For example, NLP video took me 28 hours to- to- to create, to- from- from, you know, creating an outline and writing a script because it is a complicated topic. And I didn’t want to mess and to make it more complex to people. So I needed to understand it really, really- let’s say ‘properly’, to make sure that I will be able to teach people what’s- what NLP is in fact. So it took me 28 hours of writing, outline, script and recording the video and editing it.

But of course I, I had the help from- from other people, from our team, like, for example, my colleague Marta, who helped me with the script. Erik, who helped me with visual stuff and and so on. So they’re in total- probably, it took even 50 hours of- of work.

Yeah. What- I mean, from where you are now and from when you first started making videos, what would you say some of the biggest learning experiences had been? Whether its ways to make the process easier, ways to improve the hardware, ways to structure your videos. Have you ever to have any learning takeaways from when you first started?

Oh, yes, sure. So I started doing- if you will ask me personally, I started doing videos in 2009. Of course, you as- content and YouTube was- was quite young back then. So I you know, I true- I walked through all of the lessons and and the learnings. But if you ask specifically about Surfer and English, English, English tutorials, so- and not being a native English speaker is freaking irritating, I would say, I’m not relaxed as much as I would be when doing things in Polish.

And this required me a lot of hard work. I needed to learn how to stay relaxed and precise and, you know, correct when speaking English on videos, or for example, on podcasts like this. And I still don’t feel so comfortable with that. And I feel that- that this is my biggest, biggest- the biggest problem I have with creating a video is that I can’t be as natural and authentic as I am in my, let’s say, habitat.

Right. So, yeah, people- people still watch- people are still watching this. And I believe this is because we make sure that all of our videos are professional and we spend a lot of time on writing good script, writing good outline and also editing stuff. When, for example, I have to record a 60 second introduction without any cuts or something like this. I’m you know, I’m trying to learn the whole paragraphs to- to make sure that I will not make any grammar mistake or something like that during the recording.

So it’s kind of a stressing thing- a stressful thing, but I just need to work on that and move forward. So the biggest- the biggest learning for me is to stay professional, to not cut on quality, and also to make double sure that all of the things we publish are relevant and are unique, are engaging, are amazing and and also useful to people. So we accept 80 percent of quality if it takes 20 percent of the effort. But the, you know, 80 percent of of the quality doesn’t mean that we can publish something with errors, problems and all of the stuff then it’s not necessary. If it makes sense.

Yeah, that’s it. I do understand. Yeah. I mean, I just have to say, as someone who just started watching your videos, you- I always was struck like how energetic and professional you came off. And so there is- fears that you have. I definitely did not pick up on them. So I mean, yeah, you do- you know, I can understand. It’s a huge challenge for you doing what you’re doing.

Thanks so much for- I’m really- I really appreciate hearing this. And yeah, I will keep working on that. So to be more, for example, professional during the live sessions as well.

Mm hmm. Yeah, I want- to work through that, I mean, for you, do you feel like it’s just a matter of just cont- keep it- keep doing more videos and it just gets better and easier for sure as you do it as you speak? Yeah, not to totally shift back, but hardware wise, you know, I just also love to hear, like, the specifics, like what kind of camera using? What kind of microphone? How are you plugging it into your computer? Or kind of just your- are you gearless?

Yeah sure, so.

From what you remember? If you-

Yeah, I even have a note here. So I do not miss anything because I know how valuable it can be to other people that are watching us to see the real equipment in the real, you know, in real life. So and the real example, examples like- like our discussion today. So we use Cam Link, Shure SM7B as a microphone. And I am I’m loving it as a camera. We have something of a seven- second- in the second generation with 24 millimeter lens.

And also we have some lighting rings and light boxes. Some, you know, are noise-canceling stuff here. I mean, the- I don’t know what’s the name for this, but we have those bubbles that eliminate the noise and-

Foam?

Yeah.

It’s like a foam

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. But I don’t know the company. And to be honest, I believe that it doesn’t matter of these things where it’s very similar. It’s just you know, material. Yeah. So so this is our hardware equipment. And as I said, our software is Adobe Premiere Pro. ScreenFlow for pre-recording and all of the screen recordings. And to be honest, I’ve been you know, I’ve been testing all of that, maybe not all of them, but many, many applications for recordings and ScreenFlow 9 is amazing. And I can recommend it to anyone.

What about that one? What features did it have that- that set it apart and everything else?

So it’s working. It’s working properly and yeah, and I’m able to deliver high quality of video recordings in a matter of minutes because it has also the editing software inside. So I’m able to just, you know, cut the clip and render it in 4k, 60 fps and so on in a matter of, I don’t know, twent- ten minutes or something similar. So in comparison to other tools that I’ve been using, for example, with QuickTime, it’s much, much more reliable and useful.

Yeah, yeah, QuickTime is- I mean, it’s free, it gets the job done, but it’s not-

Well, you get some problems when you-

Having extra control.

And I- I’ve noticed that when I’m, you know, recording my second- when I’m using my second monitor and I’m trying to record it via QuickTime, it- it sometimes became- become fluffy. And- and I’m- not fluffy. And it’s- it’s- it’s kind of, you know, blurry. And the video is not.

It’s stuck.

Yeah, it’s it’s-

Like a lower resolution, so looks a little blurry.

Blurry. Exactly. Thanks.

Not- not sharp.

Not sharp exactly.

Yeah. Some of these things, there aren’t words in English for any of them. So it’s not- well, there’s- there’s not a good word for it. And when you’re making the thumbnail- your thumbnails look really good. Have you- was that also a process? Did you find anything worked better when making thumbnails. What- did you have any kind of experimentation and what worked better?

Yeah. So. Ah so for many, many years I’ve tested dozens of things, especially when I was doing YouTube videos for my private channel and you know, my private channel was quite big. Mm. You know, 2015, 16 and 17. I was, you know, doing a lot of videos and you know, I just, you know, found a pattern for- for thumbnails and it’s really, really simple. To make a good thumbnail, you need a good quality, a picture, of, you know, human and humans are attracting attention and you need contrast and, you know, so-called ‘catchy’ text.

But I’m not an expert in terms of, you know, catchy texts, because it’s all- there are- there are no single on site- one size fits rule for creating a title or something like that. But it- it just have to be catchy and you can watch the videos of top YouTubers and find some inspirations. I don’t like the, you know, to- to make it as videos for kids and that kind of catchy. But of course, you can follow a pattern and use some kind of arrows, some kind of contrast and bolder text, all of the stuff.

And it works very good, really cool.

We have a nice consistency in the style to where it’s like, OK, if I kind of see that thumbnail pop up my feet, I’m like, OK, yeah, I recognize it, ‘Oh, it’s Surfer.’ Where you have like it, it’s a nice kind of like the muted the- the kind of gradient dark background.

Yeah. It’s a-

consistent photo.

Yeah. And the background is something new. We are consistently, consistently changing our design and our, you know, website and we just found that this- we just created the pattern for our own background. And I agree it looks really good. And shout out to- to our graphic designer, Eric, because it’s- it’s totally amazing. And we use it on our Academy page and to our YouTube videos, as well as other marketing materials.

Are you taking a photo, like a separate photo, outside of your recording, for the thumbnails of yourself, or whoever recorded the video?

Yeah, it’s on my To Do list because I just run out of photos, unique photos, and the last two videos have almost the same- has almost the same photo. So I need to, you know, create, to- to- I need to take more photos of myself, but also of other team members. But yeah, we- we have a studio inside our office, so we have a good background and it’s easy to cut us from this background. So it’s just a couple of minutes to create the photos that will be unique and engaging. And yeah, so, this is our process for that.

But are you saying you did like a batch, like a photo shoot, of like a bunch of photos and then you’ve just been using those photos in the thumbnails?

Yeah, we just-

Yeah, that’s a good idea.

That works. And people are not changing that fast. So where- if- if I’m able to take, I don’t know, 10 photos, and then have, you know, safe, safe choice for- for the next 10 videos, it’s it’s really a cool thing. And I don’t have to be stressed out that we’ll have to work on cutting me from this background. Right. Because it’s it’s much more, much more way difficult. So. Yeah.

So yeah. And have to like clone stamp the microphone onto your shirt or something, like to erase it- 

Yeah and we make sure that we have a lighting and so on. So yeah.

Yeah. That’s a good idea, to batch them, and get them, the high quality photos. When you’re doing the titles and description and all that stuff, are you using any, are you using any of the YouTube plug ins like TubeBuddy or VidIQ or AI transfer for, like, keyword research? Or like, are you targeting any certain keywords when doing the videos or is it kind of just based on what the video is about?

Yeah. So at this moment, no. We had an idea on creating more, more content about in general SEO and on-page SEO content, intelligence and so on. But we as I said in the beginning, we- we just noticed that product-oriented content works best for us. And at this moment we just create tutorials to Surfer. And when we’ll start doing, you know, our- when we will start executing our content strategy probably at the end of this year, maybe, maybe later, we’ll definitely do accurate research for every video because it works.

And I did this for my private channel. I also have some colleagues that are using YouTube for- to their business purposes and Ahrefs itself is a great example of targeting, you know, evergreen content. Evergreen keywords that people are always looking for and they do a description optimization, title optimization and so on. And it works and it just works. So it’s- and it works and it’s not. So times- time-consuming task, it’s just about a couple of minutes to come up with maybe not hundreds, but thousands of keywords.

And then- and here’s a tip for anyone who is listening here, listening to us. You can also use content editor- Surfer’s content editor for writing a description to your YouTube video. So when you will have a couple of keywords, you can run multi keywords analysis in Surfer, then go to settings and switch those word- word count, default word count to, for example, five hundred words. And then Surfer will suggest to you exactly what to write about.

How what, um, how many exact keywords you have to use in your description to, to rank higher in Google. But as we know, Google, a search engine, is very, very similar to YouTube’s SEO, so it should work on YouTube as well.

That is an excellent tip. And that was actually something I did want to ask later. But of- yeah. Is there overlap? Are there ways to use Surfer SEO when it comes to YouTube that’s an excellent- that’s an excellent way to use it? Is there- I don’t think it’s built in now, but is there anything that could help you if you’re trying to get your videos to show up in Google search results in the video search bar, not the search bar- the video results?

So-

The video SERP box. When the results, I’m sure-

Yeah, it of course, depends on the SERP. And the answer is not that simple, but it definitely helps. When, for example, we have a video-driven SERP and there are YouTube videos, directly from YouTube, they are competing with each other. So the better, the better description, the better title and the better content inside the- that video is, the more chances that you will be spot high in Google as well. But you asked me also about ways of using Surf- different ways of using Surfer to, for example, scale up YouTube channel.

And we have also content planner, too, which helps with creating content strategy. And it can be content strategy for YouTube videos. And it just, you know, shows you hundreds of keywords that are potential topics for the next articles or videos that targets the same, let’s say, niche, not the topic itself, but the niche. So in a matter of minutes, you can get, you know, for example, 15 ideas for the next video. So that’s that’s pretty amazing, isn’t it?

Yeah, they’re that- the content has been excellent as well. Yeah, just what I need. I wanted to see what other content ideas or other types of articles I could do. But yeah, definitely it’s a- it’s a great overlap. I’ve been experimenting too, of just kind of starting to post out more blog posts and then whichever one start getting traction, to then turn those into a video. I kind of use the blog as like a way as a testing ground to see what’s getting some- some interest. And that could potentially work better as a video. 

Cool, cool.

And kind of using these overlaps as from the SEO tools and Surfer SEO definitely helps about- I am very curious to test out using it for keyword- for YouTube descriptions that- that’s that’s a great-

If you will use Surfer’s- Surfer and Conversion AI it will smash. I’m sure!

I was going to say when you’re like, oh, I’m not that good at writing- writing headlines. I was thinking, well now you’ve got Conversion AI to help you with coming up with that one idea.

And in fact, we are using Conversion AI in Surfer and we have- you know, we have integration and many people are using it differently. So we, for example, help people to utilize Surfer and they are showing us a different way of using Conversion AI and we can learn from them as well. So I love- I love our community and I love to speak with people because they are, you know, showing extremely creative ways of using those both- both tools.

Yeah, it- it’s excellent. When you’re done with the video, what are- how do you kind of promote it? How do you share it across, like, your community, your channels? Like what’s kind of the- the- the promotion process when you hit publish?

So generally speaking, we do all of the, you know, social media promotion. We publish the video on our Facebook group. We have very strong Facebook- Facebook community. And this is our social- single social media, biggest channel for- for the- for- for itself. But also we have a Facebook fan page, LinkedIn and Twitter, and we publish the video there as well. But also we do a Google Ads promotion and every video we publish is also a video ad for our re-marketing audience.

And we, of course, have a couple of our marketing audiences for subscribers, for, for people who, you know, visited a specific page on our website and so on. But videos? We target to all of the group. So we just want to, you know, help those videos get the traction. But also we are, as we know, YouTube is not showing such videos that like- that many times as they are, for example, entertainment content.

So we have to boost it at least for- at the beginning, at the beginning. So we use Facebook- Google ads for that. And for- for- for some videos, it makes sense. We also run an ad campaigns based on the keywords. So we use Ahrefs, Surfer. We came up with hundreds of keywords and then we just upload it- uploaded to our Google ads we set and we set up the campaign with some additional settings. And then we ran up the- the campaign for the video.

And it’s- it’s delivering great results, especially in terms of growing our YouTube channel. I mean, the subscribers and- and the traction for for those videos, because it’s cheap. It’s cost us around, I don’t know, maybe ten, tenth, ten- ten cents to- yeah, sorry, to-

Yeah, no, that’s okay, it’s- get a ten cents a view?

Yeah, exactly. For a view. And you know, we have around 50 percent to 70, even 70 for some videos. Average time, watch time. So when you will, you know, take it into consideration that we pay, for example, 20 cents to get some- somebody to watch the whole video, it’s it it’s totally amazing that this- this man or the lady will get better understanding on how to use Surfer to do something, right? And they- even if they are not our subscribers right now, they will have an understanding of what the Surfer is capable of and they will probably come back to us when they will have a need for- for such a solution.

Yeah, it seems like a really cost effective way for- for an awareness campaign or general- it’s kind of moving them closer towards being a user if they’re not currently-

Yeah, education.

When you say- when you say Google ads, are you running the YouTube Discovery Ads or is it a different- which type of ad campaign are you running? Is it the one that’s like within YouTube where it shows up as a sponsored video on the side? Or is it a different type that-

It- it’s exactly this. So we are not using any in-stream ads or search ads. Oh, sorry. We, for- for example, for NLP video, we are using the YouTube search ad. But for- for- for most of our videos, it’s just a video discovery ad that shows up under other related videos.

Yeah, those are great for videos, for- for- for promoting and getting more views. And then, yeah, could you tell me a bit- I know you do a little bit of live streaming too, or that the- Surfer doesn’t livestream in? How does that sort of fit into your to your video strategy?

So we- this week we start with a new format. So it will be new series: Surfers Academy training. So we start with creating content strategy from the ground up with Surfer and then webinar, live webinar. And we will definitely use this material to, for example, create a shorter version of the webinar and publish it on YouTube and then promote it via video discovery ad campaign. But yeah, the live videos are amazing because people are asking questions and interact- interacting with us so we can have, you know, much more- much higher engagement during the- the- such a show.

And then we always notice, you know, dozens of conversions after live webinars. So- but if they- if people have some obstacles or some questions regarding Surfer, they can ask us directly during the show and we can target it. Well, just just after they asked us. So then they have the ability to come back to our website and buy a package.

Are you doing the- the- the lives, are you doing on YouTube live or on a different webinar? Different webinar platform?

You- sometimes YouTube, but most often Facebook live. And we’ll test. Soon we’ll test another platform. We used Zoom. We used something else I don’t remember, but we’ll try with Demio soon.

Is Facebook Live- is that- is that because you have a Facebook group with your community? Is that like where most of the people are?

Exactly.

Are you streaming it in the group or are you streaming it on your page?

We are streaming it to our Facebook page and sharing it directly to our Facebook group. So let’s say to both places.

Got it. Yeah, I mean, I wanted to, you know, it’s been about 40 minutes, I want to be respectful of your time. What- yeah, I mean, what are your thoughts on sort of video strategy in the future? Where do you see things going with the channel? I know you mentioned that you want to do more content strategy in- towards the end of this year or next year. But yeah, I mean, what are kind of your your closing thoughts or anything we didn’t touch on that you thought was worth mentioning?

Yeah, I see. I definitely see the movement and companies are creating more and more videos and I think that it’s- it’s useful to people. And as I said, videos, in my opinion, are the best way to learn things. And I would love to see, you know, higher quality of those videos. People that are, you know, it’s important for the video producers and video creators to, you know, be authentic and engaging and so on.

So I believe that there is a big place and space for people that will teach those things, other people. So I see a movement, I see a business opportunities for thousands of people that personally I know, so that- the market is much, much bigger for sure. And video itself- itself will still be a massive and great way for promoting products.

Yeah, I agree. And yeah, and where can people find out more about Surfer SEO? Find out more about you?

I’m- I’m sorry, can you repeat?

Oh yeah, sure. Where can people find out more about Surfer SEO and where can people find out more about yourself?

So just type Surfer SEO in Google or on YouTube and and see what it’s all about. And if you want to learn something more in details, just DM me on LinkedIn, for example. I’m Tomasz Niezgoda. And also you can- you can write to me and email [email protected]

That’s great. I’ll have all those links in the show notes once this goes live. Well yeah, thank you. Thank you so much, Tomasz. I really appreciate it. These are some great tips!

Thank you so much for having me! And so, oh yeah, so sorry. It was- thank you so much for having me!

Tags: Behind the Upload Interview Podcast Surfer SEO

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